[rescue] SparcCenter 2000E on Ebay

Francisco Javier Mesa-Martinez lefa at ucsc.edu
Thu Jun 26 03:31:51 CDT 2003

> Most paintball does not, but some paintball does.  :-)  Airball field
> modern "tournament" paintball has only in common the notion of machine
> guns. :-)  However, until you have seen a team of 6 guys complete an
> complicated objective in the middle of the night with no night vision,
> no smoke, and no accuracy beyond about 40-50 ft, I'd say you don't really
> have an idea of what happens on some paintball fields.

I'd also say you don't really have an idea of what happens in modern
warfare training. Sure, it may be challenging or whatnot, but military
training is not just the shoot'em up side of things, which you can emulate
anywhere you want playing doom.

> > And during most military exercises we used the miles training system, none
> > of that paint ball silliness :)
> Explain to me how shining light at another person to knock them out
> is more demonstrative than that "paintball silliness"?

Because a paintball gun is not the same as a modern machine gun by a long
shot, and you want soldiers to be "skilled" with the tools they are going
to use. You have to walk, sleep, and pretty much do everything around your
gun. You have to clean it, you have to keep it dry, etc. etc. Your gun is
your life insurance, using a different gun would break part of the point
of the training. The miles system has the concept of what is shooting at
what, which makes a HUGE difference, frankly spray painting has nothing to
do with a real battle environment. Thus its training purpose is nil, if
you are going to train soldiers using paintball you may aswell go a step
further and give'em water pistols, you'll get the same "tatical" outcome
at a chiper price really.

Most decent frontal army units should be populated by skilled markmen, and
there is one way to get to be proficient with guns, and that is to shot the
real thing until it becomes second nature. Most of the tactics that you'll
learn in the army are not about the shoot'em up brawl, but rather how to get
"there," how to survive once you are "there" at the same time that you perform
your mission, and in some cases how to get the hell out of "there."

 Yes, lasers
> can be used at longer distances (some would argue unreasonable distances
> compared with the accuracy of most soldiers' weapons).  Laser systems
> really don't work that well for night training, either.

Again, you have never used the system and most likely never will, so I do
not understand how you can make such claims really. It was our standard
simulation system during most NATO combined exercises I participated in,
and it did a reasonable job.

> Common foot soldiers will never see paintball incorporated into their
> training--and likely very few combat units in other countries will.
> However, in the US it is being used for some urban COB training.  Getting
> hit with paintballs is about the closest demonstration that you did some-
> thing wrong short of using live ammo.  There are too many training
> accidents already for live ammo to be used in team against team situations.

I just fail to see the usefulness of paintball in real urban warfare
training. When I got my training for urban ops it was quite simple: If
they saw you it was too late. A simple gotcha meant you are death, boom
there! that wasn't that hard really. :)

And believe me my training had more proactive methods to make us know when
we had screwed up than a paint stain and a small bruise....

> Paintball gear gives you the opportunity to have team on team situations
> which allows more creativity than against static mechanical/computerized
> targeting systems, with the "shock" of a hit anywhere on your body taking
> you out.  (My understanding is that MILES does not register hits on anything
> other than the vest and headgear.)  Particularly in an urban COB situation,
> where you are going to get hit with a 280fps paintball at less than 10
> yards.
> (I don't want to get hit with a paintball at 20 yards, much less from across
> the room.)
> And, as with everything, you have to use the right tool for the job.  Using
> paintball in training is just another case of this.

Paintball is a game, deal with it. I have talked to some avid paintballers
and they seem to think is anything close to what a normal infrantry
scenario would look like, and they get very upset when they hear what i
have to say. The whole training has to revolve around the tools your are
going to depend on, sadly no wars are fought using paintball guns thus
using these methods is a waste of time and can endanger lives because they
can mess your subconcious training. Case in point the reason why we never
used anything BUT our gear for training was becasue we had to become so
proficient using it that using anything else would completelly mess our
"psyche". For example, in the middle of any operation, urban warfare for
example, you know what is one of the worst things that can happen? A Jam,
or any other sort of situation... i.e. out of ammo, something
malfunctioning with your comms, etc. etc. You have to in the flight almost
by instinct know how to resolve those situations... by the time you enter
that phase of training you are a supposed marksman thus it is known that
as soon as you see the enemy you shoot it. The problem is what is the
point if your gun just stops working? Paintball can not simulate that, it
just simulates the final phase of training: i.e. pulling the trigger. The
thing that you do not seem to understand that there is so much that has to
happen before that, and that is what most training and tactics are about.

Training and military tactics are a serious business because people's
lives are at stake. I'd rather have ware being fought using paintball
guns, but as I said the sad reality is that they are not.. people happen
to use real guns. Thus most of your training will be with real guns, your
gun happens to be your life insurance... thus most of the training
revolves around that specific piece of machinery. Running around
spraypaing doesn't add that much to any infantrymen training really.

I guess I can give my opinion since I had to go through training and I
participated in a real life armed force so I do not mean to be mean to
the paintball fans is just that I fail to see its usefulness when I go
back and check my training and what paintball would add ot it, but
then again I do not like to remember much those days... that is why I
became a pacifist :).

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